Poetry evolved before prose. Prose was at first known as pezos logos, literally 'pedestrian, or walking, logos', as opposed to the usual dancing logos of poetry. In fact early poetry was sung: so the evolution of literary skill progresses, if that is the correct word, from right-hemisphere music (words that are sung), to right-hemisphere language (the metaphorical language of poetry), to left-hemisphere language (the referential language of prose).
Music is likely to be the ancestor of language and it arose largely in the right hemisphere, where one would expect a means of communication with others, promoting social cohesion, to arise. - Iain McGilchrist, The Master And His Emissary
I call anything that every child under the age of 10 knows, "base culture". Its part of what makes being a missionary tricky, for even though you become fluent in the language, there are always references and allusions to stuff that people just assume you know because . . . well everyone just does.
A big heaping of "base culture" is what you so appetizingly described as the literature of the kid's table. I remember my poor Japanese wife readying Dr. Seuss for the first time to my son, and suddenly loudly exclaiming "These aren't even real words!"
Much of this is the territory of myth. It is not so much literature as story. It can be told in a medium whatsoever and is still recognisable as The Three Little Pigs, Little Red Riding Hood, or Cinderella.
For a deeper look into myth, I have written some on it with help from George MacDonald, C.S. Lewis and Tolkien.
I like your term, "base culture." That nails it. Those are the things that are lost in translation and that, in the book world, require annotated editions of literature. References and allusions to stories and histories are what makes a culture and make it unique among other cultures - it happens even in the smaller culture that develops within a family. And yet there is crossover with other cultures.
I like your distinguishing between literature and story. I think children's poetry, like fantasy and sci-fi, have more of a mythic capacity than most other storytelling modes. Your examples remind me of what Lewis says in Experiment in Criticism about the mythic qualities in Orpheus and Eurydice. No matter how you tell it, those basic elements are compelling. I wonder if children's poetry is like that because is approaches poetry as a vehicle for telling story (an outward focus) and not primarily self-expression (an inward focus).
Your essay is really interesting! I really liked this quote: "As we talk about the story each child gives themselves just the right dose of truth. Instead of us deciding how much that child needs, we let the myth steal past the defenses." I love this. The story will do the work the child needs when we let it be "just" a story and don't demand of it what it can't do. It does that for us as adults.
The work you are doing sounds very rewarding. I am glad you were able to do it. Thank you again for reading!
Thank you for reading, Dr. Wilson, and for sharing your thoughts on base culture and myth. I enjoyed your essay on Lewis and MacDonald. When I was a teenager, I read all those edited MacDonald books that Michael Phillips updated. I didn’t even notice the wandering plots or long passages of sermonizing people tend to complain about; I thought all the soul wrestling was just as gripping as the rest of the character development. I reread The Curate’s Awakening recently as an adult and still loved it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on Esther’s essay! A bilingual household would definitely make the fare of the kids’ table diverse and nuanced.
Jabberwocky was one of the first poems I memorized and is still a favorite. It really does stand head and shoulders over other nonsense verse. To my mind it has a whiff of Arthurian legends and Grimm's fairy takes, knights errant slaying dragons, unlikely third sons overcoming fearsome foes.
Once when I was most certainly old enough to know better I got in trouble by throwing stones into the neighbor's yard. Stones wrapped in paper on which I'd written lines from Jabberwocky.
I love the metaphors of feast and children's table.
And yes to going back to the beginning, to the first poems of childhood, nursery rhymes and nonsense verse. I love the Northrup Frye passages, too.
I was a child who often spent more of my waking hours in books than in the real world.
I've been enjoying all your Frye excerpts so much. I'm pretty sure I read some of his work in my undergrad days but I'm definitely due for a refresher.
I am laughing out loud, Melanie, imagining what that must have been like to be your neighbor and get projectiles with lines of verse wrapped around them. I love this story so much! LOL Do you remember what prompted the act? So enjoyed all your thoughts. "Jabberwocky" is one of the most satisfying of the silly poems for me because it feels meticulously crafted. You know how sometimes Dr. Seuss does all sorts of gymnastics to get to his rhyme or stretches out a line too long? There's none of that here. It all works perfectly, and I wonder very much about his writing process. I got lost in this article about how to pronounce the words: https://victorianweb.org/authors/carroll/jabberwocky.html. I was saying "slithy" wrong: "As this poem is to some extent connected with the lay of the Jabberwock, let me take this opportunity of answering a question that has often been asked me, how to pronounce "slithy toves." The "i" in "slithy" is long, as in "writhe"; and "toves" is pronounced so as to rhyme with "groves." Again, the first "o" in "borogoves" is pronounced like the "o" in "borrow." I have heard people try to give it the sound of the "o" in " worry." Such is Human Perversity."
It's all very hazy now, but think my younger siblings were already throwing rocks and instead of making them stop, I got caught up in the game and added the messages. The neighbor was very upset and my dad was not at all pleased. I very much deserved the talking to I got.
And yes I agree on the craft of the poem. Nothing haphazard or slipshod about it at all. I'm pretty sure I found something about the correct pronunciations at some point because I remember modifying the way I said "borogoves".
I laughed reading “Jabberwocky” and started nodding my head in agreement with the quote from Frye. As a child, my first encounters with literary education were rhymes with physicality, like “This little piggy” and others. Reading this today helped me to trace the thread of my current love of poetry and books to those first simple encounters. Now I can articulate to others the importance of these small poems and why they have such an impact. It is all for the joy of being alive! And I loved the comparison of poetry to a feast, a feast where possibly the turkey is hardly remembered! Thankyou for writing.
Look up Erutan's song version of The Jabberwocky. This poem was made to be set to song! I enjoyed reading your thoughts on how this poem brings to light more uses for language that aren't just about literal meaning.
Thank you for reading, Michael, and for mentioning Erutan’s song. The rhythm in the poem is so perfect that it makes lovely music. I’m in awe of how Carroll’s nonsense words still convey meaning.
Esther Jane, I love how you framed poetry as a feast and I am happy to sit with you at the children’s table! I considered poetry foundational back when I homeschooled my children. I found it so versatile for teaching the joy of language, sound, storytelling and grammar. We really enjoyed the program designed by Andrew Pudewa. I still know so many of those poems by heart. One of our favorites was Godfrey Gordon Gustavus Gore by William Brighty Rands. I also still have my own childhood copy of Stevensons’s _A Child’s Garden of Verses_ which I loved for Gyo Fujikawa’s illustrations as much as for the poetry.
Memorizing poetry with my children is one of my favorite parts of homeschooling. I love hearing that you are a kindred spirit in this, Ann. I had to go read "Godfrey Gordon..." because I had never read that one. It reminded me of "The Goops" which lets a parent chant all the admonitions we might want to give our children in a delightful, non-sermonizing way. Stevenson is delightful. I have never outgrown my love for his novels or poems. Thank you for reading and for this thoughtful comment.
What a delightful essay! I already shared these sentiments, but you articulated them winsomely, along with a lot of excellent supporting quotations. Bravo!
"Jabberwocky" holds a very special place for me, since it is the first poem I specifically remember loving and memorizing, at age 4 or 5, after my grandfather read it to me.
What a beautiful memory and a winsome introduction to a poetic life! Thank you, again, for writing the essay that kicked off this whole series, Steven.
I love that Jabberwocky has such a deep-rooted place in your poetry experience. Your grandpa knew what he was about. I think Jabberwocky really is something special, even among children's and nonsense poetry. It manages to make itself beloved pretty much wherever it goes.
Oh my gosh, this was so enjoyable to read! I mean, opening up with Jabberwocky is more my speed! Lol! This article brought poetry down to its foundations and it makes complete sense that we would begin kids on poetry. And it doesn't make sense why we consider it so high-brow and lose our love of it! As I get into our school day, I want to bring out the silly rhymes that I've loved. I think I've taken poetry too seriously.
This is music to mv ears! 1 had hoped the essav woulc give permission to readers just enjoy poetry, even (and especiallv) the poems we tend to lav aside for "rea poetry". Abigail is absolutely right that poetry has to be a friend before it can be a counselor. That is a perfect way of thinking about it. It is the friends we can be silliest with that we can usually be most vulnerable with. Poetry is the same.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the essay, Emily! It made my day.
Oh, Emily, this is EXACTLY what I was hoping for. Yes! Read those silly poems to your kids! Let it be as goofy as it wants to be. I think when we make space to enjoy poetry as a leisure activity, it is more likely to come back and help us through pain or suffering. It sounds paradoxical, but I think it has to be a friend first. You have made this series so rich with your reflections. Thank you for being here!
Poetry evolved before prose. Prose was at first known as pezos logos, literally 'pedestrian, or walking, logos', as opposed to the usual dancing logos of poetry. In fact early poetry was sung: so the evolution of literary skill progresses, if that is the correct word, from right-hemisphere music (words that are sung), to right-hemisphere language (the metaphorical language of poetry), to left-hemisphere language (the referential language of prose).
Music is likely to be the ancestor of language and it arose largely in the right hemisphere, where one would expect a means of communication with others, promoting social cohesion, to arise. - Iain McGilchrist, The Master And His Emissary
Great write Esther Jane,
I call anything that every child under the age of 10 knows, "base culture". Its part of what makes being a missionary tricky, for even though you become fluent in the language, there are always references and allusions to stuff that people just assume you know because . . . well everyone just does.
A big heaping of "base culture" is what you so appetizingly described as the literature of the kid's table. I remember my poor Japanese wife readying Dr. Seuss for the first time to my son, and suddenly loudly exclaiming "These aren't even real words!"
Much of this is the territory of myth. It is not so much literature as story. It can be told in a medium whatsoever and is still recognisable as The Three Little Pigs, Little Red Riding Hood, or Cinderella.
For a deeper look into myth, I have written some on it with help from George MacDonald, C.S. Lewis and Tolkien.
https://drjonathanewilson.substack.com/p/well-worn-tales
Thank you for reading!
I like your term, "base culture." That nails it. Those are the things that are lost in translation and that, in the book world, require annotated editions of literature. References and allusions to stories and histories are what makes a culture and make it unique among other cultures - it happens even in the smaller culture that develops within a family. And yet there is crossover with other cultures.
I like your distinguishing between literature and story. I think children's poetry, like fantasy and sci-fi, have more of a mythic capacity than most other storytelling modes. Your examples remind me of what Lewis says in Experiment in Criticism about the mythic qualities in Orpheus and Eurydice. No matter how you tell it, those basic elements are compelling. I wonder if children's poetry is like that because is approaches poetry as a vehicle for telling story (an outward focus) and not primarily self-expression (an inward focus).
Your essay is really interesting! I really liked this quote: "As we talk about the story each child gives themselves just the right dose of truth. Instead of us deciding how much that child needs, we let the myth steal past the defenses." I love this. The story will do the work the child needs when we let it be "just" a story and don't demand of it what it can't do. It does that for us as adults.
The work you are doing sounds very rewarding. I am glad you were able to do it. Thank you again for reading!
Thank you for reading, Dr. Wilson, and for sharing your thoughts on base culture and myth. I enjoyed your essay on Lewis and MacDonald. When I was a teenager, I read all those edited MacDonald books that Michael Phillips updated. I didn’t even notice the wandering plots or long passages of sermonizing people tend to complain about; I thought all the soul wrestling was just as gripping as the rest of the character development. I reread The Curate’s Awakening recently as an adult and still loved it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on Esther’s essay! A bilingual household would definitely make the fare of the kids’ table diverse and nuanced.
thank you. I am influenced more my MacDonald than I know.
Yes! Yes! and Yes!
Jabberwocky was one of the first poems I memorized and is still a favorite. It really does stand head and shoulders over other nonsense verse. To my mind it has a whiff of Arthurian legends and Grimm's fairy takes, knights errant slaying dragons, unlikely third sons overcoming fearsome foes.
Once when I was most certainly old enough to know better I got in trouble by throwing stones into the neighbor's yard. Stones wrapped in paper on which I'd written lines from Jabberwocky.
I love the metaphors of feast and children's table.
And yes to going back to the beginning, to the first poems of childhood, nursery rhymes and nonsense verse. I love the Northrup Frye passages, too.
If that stones story is anything to go by, younger you and younger me would have been great friends. 😁 I love that enthusiasm!
Thank you for the kind words. You know I couldn't write an essay without mentioning Frye!
I was a child who often spent more of my waking hours in books than in the real world.
I've been enjoying all your Frye excerpts so much. I'm pretty sure I read some of his work in my undergrad days but I'm definitely due for a refresher.
Same!
I am laughing out loud, Melanie, imagining what that must have been like to be your neighbor and get projectiles with lines of verse wrapped around them. I love this story so much! LOL Do you remember what prompted the act? So enjoyed all your thoughts. "Jabberwocky" is one of the most satisfying of the silly poems for me because it feels meticulously crafted. You know how sometimes Dr. Seuss does all sorts of gymnastics to get to his rhyme or stretches out a line too long? There's none of that here. It all works perfectly, and I wonder very much about his writing process. I got lost in this article about how to pronounce the words: https://victorianweb.org/authors/carroll/jabberwocky.html. I was saying "slithy" wrong: "As this poem is to some extent connected with the lay of the Jabberwock, let me take this opportunity of answering a question that has often been asked me, how to pronounce "slithy toves." The "i" in "slithy" is long, as in "writhe"; and "toves" is pronounced so as to rhyme with "groves." Again, the first "o" in "borogoves" is pronounced like the "o" in "borrow." I have heard people try to give it the sound of the "o" in " worry." Such is Human Perversity."
It's all very hazy now, but think my younger siblings were already throwing rocks and instead of making them stop, I got caught up in the game and added the messages. The neighbor was very upset and my dad was not at all pleased. I very much deserved the talking to I got.
And yes I agree on the craft of the poem. Nothing haphazard or slipshod about it at all. I'm pretty sure I found something about the correct pronunciations at some point because I remember modifying the way I said "borogoves".
Melanie, that stones story is hilarious! What a wonderful foreshadowing of things to come. I just love that. 💛
I laughed reading “Jabberwocky” and started nodding my head in agreement with the quote from Frye. As a child, my first encounters with literary education were rhymes with physicality, like “This little piggy” and others. Reading this today helped me to trace the thread of my current love of poetry and books to those first simple encounters. Now I can articulate to others the importance of these small poems and why they have such an impact. It is all for the joy of being alive! And I loved the comparison of poetry to a feast, a feast where possibly the turkey is hardly remembered! Thankyou for writing.
Look up Erutan's song version of The Jabberwocky. This poem was made to be set to song! I enjoyed reading your thoughts on how this poem brings to light more uses for language that aren't just about literal meaning.
Thank you for reading, Michael, and for mentioning Erutan’s song. The rhythm in the poem is so perfect that it makes lovely music. I’m in awe of how Carroll’s nonsense words still convey meaning.
What an enchanting song! Thank you so much for sharing this with me. I loved it!
Esther Jane, I love how you framed poetry as a feast and I am happy to sit with you at the children’s table! I considered poetry foundational back when I homeschooled my children. I found it so versatile for teaching the joy of language, sound, storytelling and grammar. We really enjoyed the program designed by Andrew Pudewa. I still know so many of those poems by heart. One of our favorites was Godfrey Gordon Gustavus Gore by William Brighty Rands. I also still have my own childhood copy of Stevensons’s _A Child’s Garden of Verses_ which I loved for Gyo Fujikawa’s illustrations as much as for the poetry.
Thanks so much—this was a gem!
Memorizing poetry with my children is one of my favorite parts of homeschooling. I love hearing that you are a kindred spirit in this, Ann. I had to go read "Godfrey Gordon..." because I had never read that one. It reminded me of "The Goops" which lets a parent chant all the admonitions we might want to give our children in a delightful, non-sermonizing way. Stevenson is delightful. I have never outgrown my love for his novels or poems. Thank you for reading and for this thoughtful comment.
So glad you dealt with children's poetry! Such a hospitable tradition. Now I'm off to read! Whoooo!
Thank you!
What a delightful essay! I already shared these sentiments, but you articulated them winsomely, along with a lot of excellent supporting quotations. Bravo!
"Jabberwocky" holds a very special place for me, since it is the first poem I specifically remember loving and memorizing, at age 4 or 5, after my grandfather read it to me.
What a beautiful memory and a winsome introduction to a poetic life! Thank you, again, for writing the essay that kicked off this whole series, Steven.
Thank you!
I love that Jabberwocky has such a deep-rooted place in your poetry experience. Your grandpa knew what he was about. I think Jabberwocky really is something special, even among children's and nonsense poetry. It manages to make itself beloved pretty much wherever it goes.
Fantastic piece, Esther. You’d have convinced me even if I weren’t already.
Thank you! I managed to re-convince myself while writing it, if that's a thing. :)
Oh my gosh, this was so enjoyable to read! I mean, opening up with Jabberwocky is more my speed! Lol! This article brought poetry down to its foundations and it makes complete sense that we would begin kids on poetry. And it doesn't make sense why we consider it so high-brow and lose our love of it! As I get into our school day, I want to bring out the silly rhymes that I've loved. I think I've taken poetry too seriously.
This is music to mv ears! 1 had hoped the essav woulc give permission to readers just enjoy poetry, even (and especiallv) the poems we tend to lav aside for "rea poetry". Abigail is absolutely right that poetry has to be a friend before it can be a counselor. That is a perfect way of thinking about it. It is the friends we can be silliest with that we can usually be most vulnerable with. Poetry is the same.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the essay, Emily! It made my day.
Oh, Emily, this is EXACTLY what I was hoping for. Yes! Read those silly poems to your kids! Let it be as goofy as it wants to be. I think when we make space to enjoy poetry as a leisure activity, it is more likely to come back and help us through pain or suffering. It sounds paradoxical, but I think it has to be a friend first. You have made this series so rich with your reflections. Thank you for being here!